The Canadian plane manufacturer Bombardier has urged Air Serbia to replace its regional ATR fleet with the Dash 8 Q400 turboprop. Speaking on the sidelines of the Southeast Europe Aviation Summit, Bombardier's Director of Sales for Europe, Russia and CIS, Mark Gilbert, said, "Looking at Air Serbia, the Q400 not only replaces the ATRs but also helps them on some routes that are longer and that are narrower that go up to narrow bodies, which we understand are not being flown to full capacity, which is important. A good solution for Air Serbia would be two prone, the Q400 and C-series. I'm not saying that the CRJ900 and CRJ1000 would not fit here, but I would not want to go into an airline and give a three-aircraft solution. Let's keep it simple and let's give them two different fleet types". Within the former Yugoslavia, the Q400 turboprop, which has the capacity to seat up to 76 passengers, is currently flown only by Croatia Airlines. This year, Bombardier began offering the Q400 in a ninety-seat high density variant. According to Bombardier marketing, the aircraft breaks even with about a third of its seats filled.
Air Serbia currently operates six ageing 66-seat ATR72 planes and is yet to decide on whether it will maintain its regional operations with turboprop or jet-engine aircraft in the future. "Our strategy is to start flying double daily to a number of cities and to get new regional planes. We will see whether they will be turboprops or jet-engine aircraft. With these, we can cover points in the region", Air Serbia's Chairman, Siniša Mali, has said. Last year, the airline's CEO, Dane Kondić, noted that such a decision will depend on a range of factors such as pricing and other terms and conditions. However, leasing aircraft, rather than ordering them from the manufacturer, could be a simpler solution due to the longer time required to deliver new-built aircraft.
Bombardier has also seen an opportunity to pitch its new C-series aircraft to Air Serbia. Mr Gilbert noted, "They have a fleet of A319 and A320s and the C-series is an optimal aircraft for that. One of the big reasons is seasonality here. In the summertime you have 67% of annual traffic and that is growing year over year. What you want is an aircraft that can balance off as much as much as it can the good and the bad. We see, for example, on sectors from Belgrade to Amsterdam, where the A320s are only hauling around 85 passengers in the winter. Now, that's growing and you have to keep growth into perspective but that's still a low number. So what you want to do is get a C-series aircraft which has the lowest trip cost and balance out that seasonality". Air Serbia has ten Airbus A320neos on order which will eventually replace the current jet-engine fleet. The jets have the capacity to seat up to 165 passengers in a two-class configuration. Air Serbia will start taking delivery of the jets in the second half of 2018, with all ten to be with the airline by 2020.
I personally enjoy Q400 more than the ATR but I agree it would make more sense to be ordered as part of a C-series deal, which I doubt will happen. Time is running out on deciding a replacement for the ATRs though. My guess is that will need to start replacing them in 2018 at the latest.
ReplyDeleteI think Air Serbia should order passenger jets instead of replacing them with new atr 72s, I think getting more Airbus would be best solution, 6 A319s, to have all airbus fleet. However if they do decided to go for smaller passenger jet, Sukhoi Superjet 100, should be best solution imho and Air Serbia can get these for only $28 million at manufacturer's price or $22 million if they order 6. 98 seats one class, or 86 in two class configuration 32 and 36 inch pitch.
DeleteThey wetleased Adria's CRJ 900 this summer and said that they were reviewing the plane which made a good impression on them. So the assumption is they are heading towards Bombardier for regional fleet replacement.
ReplyDeletethey leased it only because adria owed them money and that was the only aircraft available from adria
DeleteBut they did say how they were reviewing the plane. Even gave cabin crew the chance to say how they liked it.
DeleteYes JU guest ambassadors got asked by the company if they liked the plane, the working conditions and if they would like to work on a plane like this. I doubt they asked them for no reason.
DeleteWe will see. A decision should be made next year.
DeleteDoesn't the Q400 consume more fuel vs the ATR?
ReplyDeleteThat depends on way how you use it and also on length of flight.
DeleteATR is still better for SKP, SJJ, SOF, ZAG and LJU. Probably for TIA and VIE too. The question is whether to use Q400 or regional jet for longer flights.
DeleteQ400 can flight long range cruise or high speed cruise. Difference in fuel consumption is considerable. So you can use it for all those airports you mentioned if you use it correctly. It will not burn less then ATR but will carry more people and payload and since its faster, it will do more rotations in a day. That all results in cash for the airline.
DeleteBut the best part of the Q400, is that it can replace the jet on medium haul routes when it's flying at 50% load, like in the winter time, which is not only a problem for Air Serbia but for all regional companies around Balkans.
You only have to look at the Q400 track record at OU. They have issues with the plane every other week. It would be the worst solution for JU.
ReplyDeleteAgree. Especially with landing gears. Remember the SK case? I still think Canadian manufacturers still need more experience compared to the competitors.
DeleteThere used to be a structural disfunction with q400 landing gear - yes - but that was solved for all aircraft in mandatory maintenance some 10 years ago.
DeleteBy flight hours done, Q400 is the most reliable turbo prop ac.
Remember during I think prelast summer how many ATr72 were out of service, several parallel at same time, in ASL?
Delete@ AnonymousDecember 15, 2016 at 10:25 AM
DeleteThat is correct but they are simply old. Most are from 1990.
For all the hours I operated on the Q400, I never had one landing gear issue. Any other glitches were mostly solved by quick circuit breaker resets, just like we do now on the Airbus. So, yes they had issue a long time ago, but not as much as people believe they have today.
DeleteThe Q400 is the best regional jet replacement on the market, especially for sectors over one hour which are horrible on the ATR.
ReplyDeleteTrue. Much better than the ATR.
DeleteA) Passenger comfort compared to ATR
DeleteB) longer distances possible and better distance-fuel consumption ratio compared to ATR
A)If you go for passenger comfort, go for regional jets.
DeleteB) actually Q400 burns significantly more fuel per passenger than ATR.
Yes, because it flies faster by almost 100kts, it climbs to FL270 without ANY issues fully loaded, and can avoid ice much better due to its cruising altitude. All that while flying more people and cargo. So yes, it will burn more, but less then half empty Airbus in the winter which is a big problem for ASL or anyone for that matter.
DeleteATR is great, but it has limited capabilities in some sectors.
A) comparison was explicitely with ATR
DeleteB) it burns more on very short routes (up to approx. 55mins if i remember correctly) but can do long routes of two hours and more for ex. where it is more economical
A) If the comfort is the most important thing, then why limit your comparison to turboprops, when Q400 is only marginally better than ATR? If you are serious about comfort, go for R Jets.
DeleteB) No, you don't remember correctly. ATR remains much more economical on much longer routes.
So you claim that Q400 becomes somehow more economical on flights above 2 hours compared to ATR?
Why would you submit your passengers to 2+ hours flights on turboprop? I see no logic there. I thought comfort is important to you.
Ref A) yes it is a comparison limited to all props and turboprop, particularly towards ATR as per posts from Anons 9:13 and 10:06 who talk of ATRs.
DeleteHowever if you are serious about comparing Dash and Jets on typical short haul routes - we can compare that too and the turboprop will almost always win very easily.
Ref B) That is not what was meant. The Q400 becomes more economical compared to ATR from a certain average flight time. That is logical and easy to explain as in some flight stages ATR performs economically better and in some it is the Dash. On higher altitude and faster speeds the ATR is being outperformed by the Dash on routes with certain sector lengths (Q400 on bit longer routes, then later a jet engine aircraft will gain the upperhand) I might be wrong with the 55 Min indication, I do not remember exactly. Although a Q400 can fly 4 hours as said on here few weeks ago it does hardly operate any of such routes due to jet being better and yes more comfortable then. However, on the average sector length of turboprop the Dash is more economical compared to an ATR72 - that of course includes all facts and technical advantages and advancements where Dash wins by far: it has some 16% higher capacity, needs less flying time, climbs faster hence is less on more fuel consuming low altitudes and so on.
B) Lot of talking, very little specificity. Yes, maybe in some laboratory circumstances that never comes in real life where you want to torture passengers on a 3,5 hours flight by a turboprop, there is hypothetical situation where Q400 comes as cheap as ATR. You can use, again hypothetically, Q400 more during one day because it does its tours marginally faster. But, not in real life. And even if you do, you pay way more, because Q400 wants to be something between tprop and jet. It loses on economy in comparison with ATR, and on speed and comfort in comparison with r-jets. Always the second best.
DeleteThe bottom line. ATR is way cheaper per passenger on shorter routes, typically used by tprops.
ATRs are way more popular among customers and you can sell used ones more easily, for a relatively better price than a q400 of the same age.
ATRs are true working horses. Just look at RO, Indonesian carriers - very efficient and reliable. Although, the best option would be Embraer. Just many European carriers are using it and has proven to be an excellent option: KL, BA, LO, FB, B2, etc, etc
ReplyDeleteIt makes me wonder how does Air Serbia plan to fill the A320neos if it is having trouble filling A319/A320s on many routes, especially during the winter.
ReplyDeleteCharge less and carry more pax - just like the LCCs do.... they have no probs filling jets and are equally filling the NEOs which have more capacity than current generation 319/320s ... so the answer is not in smaller capacity turbo fleet, rather, in the sales and marketing strategy that they need to adopt in order to address the issue of seasonality
DeleteWouldn't it be easiest just to lease newer ATRs? I mean you would get rid of additional costs of having to retrain your pilots and crew.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts too. Doesen't Etihad Regional have some newish ATR72s. Or did they give them all to Alitalia?
DeleteBombardier is far more desperate for new customers so they would probably give them a better price. Not to mention that the waiting list for the Q400 is much shorter than for the Atrs.
DeleteWhat worries me is that JU would use them to places like CPH or STR during winter time when there is less demand.
As for their reliability, there were issues but OS and OA seem to be doing fine. They don't seem too unhappy with them.
In the end, I don't think this deal will happen. We will most likely see some second hand Atrs join the fleet next year.
Bombardier has just 24 Q400 orders this year. Backlog is 36 examples. In same time they deliver 36 planes per year (3 per month) so their backlog is just for one year. Philippines orders 5 Q400 several days ago and they will be delivered during 2017.
DeleteATR had 76 orders in 2015. In begging of 2016 they had backlog of 260 planes what is enough for 3 years of production.
Shows which turboprop is preferred by the market. There must be a reason.
DeleteBombardier has a bad standing or reputation i heard in large parts of Asia and Africa... It goes without saying that there ATR has no real competitor it seems... Reason is unknow to me.
DeleteIn some parts of the world Q400 rules. Pacific Northwest is all Q400. I recently had a number of flights on Q400 (Alaska/Horizon Air, Air Canada Express) around YVR and SEA and Q400 is perfect for local connections.
DeleteQ400 needs sparsely populated areas with relatively longer distances and cheap fuel to show its true value.
DeletePerfect for Alaska and Canada, but not for a typical European flights. In EU it is usually just few minutes faster than ATR, while devouring way more expensive European fuel.
I would also add that aviation in Europe has an additional competitor: trains.
DeleteOk, Serbian trains might be a joke but this is not the case elsewhere in Europe.
Zagreb-Beograd
ReplyDeleteponedjeljak 12.12. u 20:40
Air Serbia ATR 72
32/66 = 48%
Beograd-Zagreb
srijeda 14.12. u 18:20
Air Serbia ATR 72
66/66 = 100%
Zagreb-Beograd
srijeda 14.12. u 20:40
Air Serbia ATR 72
44/66 = 67%
72% u prosjeku sredinom prosinca. Jako dobri rezultati.
Good for this time of year.
Deletemy guess is that replacing owned atrs and boeings with the newer aircraft which will the have to pay for will be postponed as much as possible, since it will burn another hole in airserbia's pockets
ReplyDeleteThey will also have to do something about Aviolet B737s unless they keep them one more year during 2017 and in 2018 just shift some A319s to Aviolet since A320neos will arrive.
ReplyDeleteWow 67% of traffic is handled during the summer. Makes you realize how seasonal travel is in ex-Yu and how weak the winters are.
ReplyDeleteWell, the people in ex-yu can't afford to travel by plane and the gastoz have their leaves in summer... :)
DeleteTrue that. But I guess they have to think of ways how to change that. More transfer pax is a good idea and I though they were doing that. Maybe during Jat Airways time the seasonality was even bigger.
Delete& Alen Šćuric Purger December 15, 2016 at 9:37 AM
ReplyDeleteZagreb-Beograd
During first two weeks of December Air Serbia flew 24 times BEG-ZAG, 2020 passengers, 24 flights in total. They fly double daily, excluding evening flight on Saturdays and morning flight on Sundays. One flight was performed with B733, all others with ATR72-200 (mostly) and ATR72-500.
That means flights were always full, no?
Delete24x66 seats means they offered 1.584 seats in total for 2020 passengers?
OT: KL just announced flying 6x pw from AMS to SPU during the summer
ReplyDeletehttp://www.exyuaviation.com/2016/12/klm-to-commence-split-service.html
DeleteKL also just announced new daily flights AMS-GRZ.
DeleteInteresting to all Slovenians on here.
&December 15, 2016 at 10:38 AM
ReplyDeletePresented results are quite obviously for both directions, can't you conclude that by yourself ?
No but there is no need to be a dick about it.
DeleteATR72 - znacajno jeftiniji, manja potrosnja ali i manja brzina, manja visina leta, manji dolet.
ReplyDeleteQ400 - znacajno skuplji, brzi, veca potrosnja goriva, veci dolet, veca visina leta.
It´s strange that neither JU nor OU are interested in Embraers. Its a very reliable and efficient aircraft and already used by so many European airlines.
ReplyDeleteI think MRJ would be a good plane for Air Serbia. Unfortunately it does not fit into their plan to get regional aircraft in relatively quickly which probably means getting second hand planes instead for speedy delivery.
DeleteA lot of people actually do not like flying with turboprops be it ATR or Dash 8s. Is there an jet engine 70-80 seat alternative?
ReplyDeleteYes Embraer E170 it 175. Perfect replacement for ATRs. Has 80 seats or around 70 in two classes.
DeletePeople love cheap fares so airlines need to get aircraft that have the lower cost.
DeleteTurbo props are efficient aircraft, but they are also high maintenance aircraft. And I agree people want jet engines and that's the case everywhere. You only have to see what kind of aircraft are being produced now to realise that the manufacturers know that as well.
DeleteI don't know such people personally. Only here.
DeleteBtw. I heard that turboprops are marginally safer for flying. Is that true?
Many turboprops can land safely even if both engines stop during the flight.
DeleteAgree with last two Anons. That is due to lighter weight and ability to land also outside aerodromes in case of emergency.
DeleteAs for the assumption that people "prefer" jets: If you generally ask people, that statement will be true. A jet is the most comfortable aircraft type and is the quietest inside of the cabin.
But if you ask: Do you prefer flying BEG-VIE-BEG (2x300nm) for EUR 150 return in Turboprop or EUR 200 return in jet, the results will be different.
I am affraid the answer would be: prefer to fly on a jet for EUR 100 to Bratislava instead.
DeleteLOL 3:44 :) You made my day :)
DeleteAir Serbia doesn't have the money to buy or lease planes.
ReplyDeleteAnd you know that how? As far as I'm aware they are currently leasing 13 planes in their fleet and I haven't heard that they have had issues paying for them.
DeleteWhich is why they still can't afford to retire or at least refurbish the B733s
DeleteB737s have been refurbished.
Deleteomg
Delete"I haven't heard that they have had issues paying for them"
did you possibly heard of belgrade airport writeoffs for airserbia?
once that practice is stopped there will be problems.
1/ There were never any 'write-offs'. That was part of the deal between the Govt and Etihad from the beginning, when the govt didn't have money to put into the airline and then decided to waive airport fees for 2 years in lieu of putting cash in the business.
Delete2/ Air Serbia has been paying ALL airport fees as of 1 Jan from this year.
So, while you are free to write whatever you wish, your credibility is significantly helped when you post facts, rather than fiction
Some of them were refurbished by I think ANI and ANK still have the old Jat interiors with really old and worn out textile seats. AND and ANJ have the old LH interiors bought by Jat but they are also quite old and badly maintained.
DeleteEtihad 100 million
DeleteRelublic of Serbia with BEG 156 million
it should be 49:51, not 49:75
My worry is that JU would use turboprops for longer routes if they decide on Q400, if nothing else, to cover the operating cost.
ReplyDeleteATR 500s & 600s with contemporary interior are perfectly adequate aircraft for 45-60 min flights, silent, comfortable. economical.
I would love to see Embraer E jets in the fleet but I seriously doubt that the fleet ATR, E195, A319, A320 and A330 would make Financial Department happy.
Ive flown on LH and JP CRJ900s numerous times and never liked them as a passenger. LH & YM Embraers are far ahead.
Eight
Is there a possibility for JU to lease Embraer planes from AZ? This would be an ideal solution for the replacement of the regional fleet, especially E175
DeleteBUD - SKP flights announced!
ReplyDeletePlease review all the daily news
Deletehttp://www.exyuaviation.com/2016/12/wizz-air-to-start-pristina-flights.html
Big News:)))
DeleteNow air serbia must launch flights belgrade pristina:)
This was announced months ago. They just put tickets on sale today
DeleteLet's be clear, this is a mockery of JU subsidized by the Hungarian government. If Air Serbia had a proper regional network, these flights would be next to impossible. Yet, Kondic cancelled Budapest and struggles in Sarajevo.
Delete@2:49, what's wrong with you?
DeleteWho are you referring to?
DeleteQ400 is a great plane and would be good choice for Air Serbia. As for the c series, I don't think they need them.
ReplyDeleteIf they have the money yes it is great but I think this is all a future plan maybe in two years , unless etihad buy or lease for JU.
DeleteAirbus 320 neo is ordered for Air Serbia but future of a319 is not clear. C series can replace a319 and packaged/discounted with Q400 can be appealing option for Air Serbia.
DeleteWhen the time comes to renew the regional fleet, they will just take second hands ATRs. It's the cheapest option.
ReplyDeleteIt is, but experience with Adria CRJ900 shows there is a place for longer, thinner routes like Kiev that can't be served by ATR/Q400. Replacement for Aviolet should be A320, only without business class seats. There is a need for holistic review of Air Serbia fleet, not partial replacements.
DeleteCan't be served by ATR, but can be served with Q400.
DeleteSince you are talking about planes I just arrived home (athens) from hamburg via Belgrade . Belgrade to athens with a319 but hamburg to Belgrade with aviolet B733 , excelent service but I think JU has to replace those B733 ,they look old and not enough comfortable.
ReplyDeleteHow were the loads to HAM?
DeleteAnd you find the A319 comfortable? Other than in emergency exit rows the legroom is
DeleteAouuch big time if your height is over 180 cm..
There you go again. I know what keeps you uncomfortable in your seat. The word "Serbia" in Air Serbia. No seat pitch can help there.
DeleteHow do you know who you talkin to? Which Anonymous are you talkin about?
DeleteI am 1.85 and JU's seats are very uncomfortable because they are the older generation ones, that is they are not slim-seats most airlines use these days.
DeleteSame thing with Wizz Air. If you are flying on one of their older A320s then the experience is pretty horrible. However, if you end up on one of their newer ones then it's a completely different story.
Vidi se da nikada ne putuje..sedela u AS su više nego udobna i mnogo bolja od svih evropskih kompanija.
DeleteVidi se da nikada ne putuje..sedela u AS su više nego udobna i mnogo bolja od svih evropskih kompanija.
DeletePo mom misljenju ASL bi trebala da ostane pri ATR-u da jednostavno nabavi novije kad se duze ceka na ATR 72-600
ReplyDeleteI takodje mislim da bi Embraer takodje bio odlican izbor za Regionalnu Flotu.
A naravno treba ostati porudzbina za A320 neo .
INN-NS
Iskreno ne znam koliko je realno da se ASL prebaci na Q400 ili C seriju ili E170, E175 ili E190. Razlog zbog cega mislim da je to malo verovatno je taj sto je Etihad suvlasnik i pravac razvoja ASL i obnove flote ASL treba glrdati u tom pravcu. Iz tog razloga, ako budu nabavljali nove turbopropere verujem da ce izbor biti na ATR72 i eventualno SAAB 2000 (Etihad Regional kao primer). Dalje, ASL novih 10 A320neo dobija kroz Etihadovu porudzbinu iz 2013. godine kada su porucili 117 Airbus aviona i 82 Boeing aviona. Ti avioni koje ASL dobija bice Etihadovi i iz tog razloga verujem da pravac razvoja organizacije, flote i ljudstva i svega ostalog dolazi iz Etihada i da Etihad to odredjuje.
ReplyDeletePrimer jedan, godinama putujem po celom svetu i usluga na ASL A330 na putu iz JFKa za BEG je ista (u organizacionom smislu kabinskog osoblja) kao i pre neku godinu kada sam sa A330 leteo Etihadom ka Australiji, konkretno Perthu.
Zato gledam na ASL kao Etihad samo u kome rade Srbi po Etihadovim pravilima i po evropskom regionu.
Naravno voleo bih da cujem Vasa misljenja i misljenje gospodina Alena na ovaj moj komentar.
Sve najbolje dobri ljudi!
Sorry, my personal opinion - I find the Q400 horrible, once flew with A3 with it. Noisy, and very unstable. E170 is a much better and more decent option. Canadian aircraft, just like C-series, tend to be lower class and made from cheaper material hence their lower price.
ReplyDeleteRemarkably ignorant and offensive comment.
DeleteI do agree with Anon 1:44 AM.
DeleteIt is an fair comment of Anon 6:24 PM.
Stability of turboprops not comparable
Jet aircrafts!.
Rodney & Travellers.
Kraljevo - Sydney-Serbia-Sydney
Huh? Compare stability of a DQ8400 to a CRJ! I have flown several times last year between Washington and New Orleans and done CRJ ex-LH Cityline flights all in CRJs and found them very shakey - as soon as there is bit thermic activity it keeps shaking you left right left which was a nasty experience on almost all flights. I have never experienced this in a DQ8400 or ATR. But also not in any Embraer.
DeletePostovani Anon 5:25 PM
ReplyDeleteVase misljenje je poucno. Er Srbija kao deo vlasnistva Etihad Airways-a, je absolution realno. Standard usluga Etihada je neuporedivo sa bilo kojom avio kompanije u najvecem delu Evrope. I ako vrlo mlada avio kompanija ima vise najvisih priznanja iz vise vrsta usluga ove tako mlade, a tako renomirane kompanije. Logicno Etihada, koga Er Srbija treba da prati. Koga bi drugog u Etihad Group of Company?. A i van nje.
Nije mudro otkrivati iznova toplu vodu. Pogotovo
mladoj Srpskoj avio kompaniji koja ima nasledstvo jos od Aero Puta. Sto jeste impresivno duga istorija, ali ne previse mnogo od toga. To zivot i poslovanje svedoci.U istinskoj sam nadi i iscekivanju sa mnogim, da ce Er Srbija nastaviti zesci razvoj posle Belgrade Aviation Summit, mada ne previse spektakularnog,ali krucijalnog dogadjaja Srbije u ovoj oblasti do sada. Sto se tice regionalnog saobracaja, pristalica sam Kanadskog Bombardier - a, turbopropa. "C" klss prvenstveno.
Pred Bozicni Pozdrav iz Kraljeva.
Radovan +.
Good night fm ZRH. Just rcvd the latest edition of the German edition of the Business Traveller Magazine. It has a C Class Review of JU BEGTXL flight and is praising JU service with excellent notes
ReplyDeleteIt says JU is setting standards what on short haul flights in Business Class possible is. The journalist says, he has not seen anything similar in the world on such a short flight. It is obvious that JU is hungry and it does everything to present itselves and the country on the international stage. The achievements are convincing and he hopes that the high level of service can be maintained for the future
The rewiew is on page 30,31 in the Dec-Jan edition
Hi BEGLAX 9:28 PM.
ReplyDeleteItis so nice to reed your text about Air Serbia
in German magazine. Hopefully Serbian carrier will keep up momentum. And rising to higly recognized, up to medium-sized of 30+ aircrafts fleet. Time will proofing.
Greetings from Kraljevo.
Rodney
Dear Rodney, aren t u anymore living in Australia?
DeleteThe article is indeed excellent PR for JU, hope it will materialize for them too
Happy holidays fm a grey ZRH
Dear Anon 12:17 PM.
DeleteSice I have retired six years ago, half year I live in Homeland Australia, and second part in Fatherland Serbia. Vinter in Serbia, vinter in Aussiland, down under.
Most of as have to be PR of good will of cleer mind. For every good corse.
Keep fly, keep hig, keep confident. And happy too.
Rod. Kralkevo + Sydney