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| Charter spat between Turkey and Serbia continues |
Turkish authorities are yet to respond to a permit request lodged by Air Serbia in order for its dedicated charter brand Aviolet to operate leisure flights to the country this summer. It comes after the Serbian Ministry for Construction, Transport and Infrastructure blocked two Turkish charter carriers - Freebird Airlines and Corendon Airlines - from running services to Belgrade. A handful of tour operators affected by the decision have accused the Ministry of protectionist policies and measures. According to the daily “Večernje novosti”, only Turkish Airlines has so far received necessary permits to operate holiday flights between Turkey and Serbia. Its Antalya - Belgrade charters are scheduled to launch once per week from May 23 and will increase to six weekly services from mid-June through to mid-September.
The Serbian Ministry for Construction, Transport and Infrastructure says that a total of 114.680 seats were to be offered on charter flights between the two countries this summer. Of those, 90.096 seats were to be provided by Turkish carriers. However, the Ministry claims that Air Serbia should have the upper hand since it is transporting Serbian holidaymakers. It believes that only if the carrier does not have the necessary capacity or interest should foreign airlines step in. Serbian tour operators claim that Air Serbia does not have the requested capacity to exclusively carry out charters to Turkey. The airline plans to offer 19.584 seats on leisure flights to the country this season if it is issued a permit. “At this point we have 10.000 travellers affected by the Ministry’s decision and it is very uncomforting not knowing what will happen to these passengers”, one of the hardest hit tour operators, Argus Tours, said in a statement. The Serbian Ministry has also blocked Egyptian charter carrier Nesma Airlines from operating flights between Hurghada and Belgrade.
For its part, the Ministry has rejected claims of protectionism. “More often than not the media are trying to portray that the Ministry is protecting Air Serbia which is not true because we do not have another carrier. Out of the 114.000 seats requested between the two countries, only 19.000 are by our airline, which is more than 80% in favour of the Turkish side. When charters are concerned, such a trend must be completely reversed”, Assistant Minister and the former head of security at Belgrade Airport, Zoran Ilić, says. The State Tourist Inspection body, which supervises the implementation and enforcement of laws and other regulations in the tourism sector, says tour operators have the right to conclude agreements with foreign charter carriers and have not acted outside of the law. As EX-YU Aviation News understands, both Corendon Airlines and Nesma Airlines have resubmitted their requests to operate charter flights to Belgrade this summer.
Total mess! Having no "national " airline seems to be more convinient for us passengers those days.. Hungar, Slovakia, Macedonia.. are some of the examples!
ReplyDeleteSame for Bosnia, since BH Airlines is almost gone we see such progress in terms of passengers increase and airfare offers
DeleteSarajevo is getting 6 flights per week on SJJ-AYT route, maybe some Serbian passengers will be using them. In past years SJJ-AYT was 2 to 3 times per week.
ReplyDeletehttp://flyingbosnian.blogspot.com/
bednici i pokvareni ljudi koji ce ove godine mnogima upropastiti letovanje, a nekima vec upropastili. da ne spominjem one glupake i poluljude kojima je veciti komentar ''zastita nacionalnog prevoznika''.
ReplyDeleteRepublika Srbija i Republika Turska nemaju potpisan bilateralni sporazum o vazdušnom saobraćaju. Na snazi je onaj koji su potpisale FNRJ i Turska 1953. godine. Član 1. sporazuma sadrži načelo reciprociteta ali samo u delu sporazuma koji se odnosi na redovan avio saobraćaj. Pravilo reciprociteta nije predviđeno u delu sporazuma koji se odnosi na čarter saobraćaj niti je ovo pitanje na bilo koji način regulisano. Kada obe drzave potpisu sporazum, koji je u pripremi vec par godina, ovih problema vise nece biti. Problem datira već više od decenije, daleko pre Air Serbije. Jos 1990. Turska je odbila da potpiše tadašnji predlog ugovora.
DeletePrimećujem da najveću frku po medijima ustvari prave (nazovimo ih) turističke agencije, sve navodno u cilju zaštite svojih putnika i nižih cena što je velika glupost i licemerje.
ReplyDeletePa meni se čini u cilju zaštite svoje zarade ali i koristi putnika? Što ako JU ne može na jednako konkurentan način (bilo cijenom, bilo redom letenja) zadovoljiti potražnju? Da li se u tom slučaju zbilja štite interesi građana ili jedne kompanije?
DeleteAvio saobraćaj je medjunarodno regulisana delatnost. Problema je bilo i kada je postojao AGX. Kada se potpiše sporazum i to će se rešiti ali za sporazum su potrebne dve strane ne samo jedna.
DeleteTačno. Bez sporazuma sve se svodi na to ko je više agresivan i ko smisli bolju ucenu jednom godišnje. Ni turističke agencije ne treba osudjivati jer one u ovakvoj situaciji ne mogu ništa da planiraju unapred i moraju da se laktaju kao i svi drugi kada svake godine krene nova runda nadigravanja.
DeleteI stand completely by Air Serbia on this one. Not only the Turks wants to profit from Serbian holidaymakers, but also to earn some additional money on the transport through a de-facto monopoly, putting the Serbian side on the complete sidelines with less than 20% marketshare. If i was the ministry i would simply declare the Turkish coast as "not safe enough to visit due to epidemiological reasons or the war in neibhour Syria" or Turkey not complying with some safety standards rendering insurance void and give reasons to tour-operators to think twice, after ordering them to reimburse all packages. Then let's see who stands to lose more, Turkey for not receiving dozens of thousands of Serbian tourists or Avioloet which isn't gonna fly them. In charter business foreign companies should step-in only when there is capacity issues.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, i really don't see why they turned down Air Cairo since they're operating scheduled flights, unless Air Serbia means to open Cairo itself, which in any case is contraproductive. SM recently added Belgrade to the GDS and i think they're also bringing tourists to Serbia. People should have the choice to fly to Hurghada on their own for a reasonable price without any holiday packages (not being any other air links between the two countries) and in this case i would call it as unhealthy competition from the Serbian side.
Greetings from Egypt.
Thankfully you are not a ministry and hopefully you will never be. Your insane chauvinism is a serious disgrace for this blog.
DeleteAэrologic
Delete+1000
Cini mi se da ste rekli da i vi radite za neku Turisticku Agenciju u SRB , kako ste vi resili taj problem :)
INN-NS
So Egypt, the nationalism si never to far away is it? The first piece of you text goes in one direction and the other part in another direction.....wonderful.
DeleteI bet my ass on when AirSerbia didn't get the requested approvals from Zagreb a few months ago, within seconds, you were screaming the same tune as Vucic about EU-protecionism? When the truth as that it took less then 24 hrs to get the permits, although Vucic were bitching 10 days later about the matter.
So here we go again.....the bad Turks are now to be blamed for the protectionism of somebody at the Ministry of Stupidity....
Yep the State is to tell all business in Serbia who and how they are to do. Do not let anybody else live their live as they think. This is why we have a Ministry.
EU? Free movement of capital and workforce?! Just as long as the Ministry of Stupidity allows it....and Serbia benefits from it....
Turska nema potpisan ugovor o slobodnom nebu sa EU.
Deletehttp://www.inc.com/associated-press/dispute-between-us-and-persian-gulf-airlines-heats-up.html
DeleteJust a small remark : according to Avíolet's web-site, they will operate 115 flights to Antalya, Bodrum-Milas and Dalaman in total. Given that old Boeings are of 144 seat configuration, one can calculate that Aviolet is offering slightly above 33.000 seats on their flights to Turkish resorts, not 19.000 seats. Then why are they speaking about so underestimated figure ?
DeleteAnon 11:22
DeleteYou are so finished now when aerologic comes back, with his classic "you don't know who are you messing with" attitude. Quite few times aerologic and inn-sns especially had chauvinistic comments regarding turks here on this forum
Neverovatno je sta sve TK radi za DUS salju redovno A332 ili 77W a za VIE A332 ili A343 i ja ne znam sto se ne brani a Austrijia nije nista ucinila da bi zastitila OS zato sad lete samo sezonski za IST.
ReplyDeletePa su zabranili i Dodiku prelet preko Turske sto je toliko smesno , pa kad im neka zemlja pruzi otpor odma se bune nesto.
INN-NS
Btw, what is happening with Air Serbia? They seem to be transferring more and more flights to Aviolet and the old B733? It seems that today all 4 ex-JAT B733s will be operating on scheduled Air Serbia services:
ReplyDeleteJU350 Berlin
JU230 Zagreb
JU182 Tivat
JU172 Podgorica
JU534 Rome
JU344 Stuttgart
JU194 Ljubljana
JU604 Vienna
JU826 Beirut
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against those planes, but wasn't the fleet replaced because of their fuel consumption (ie. profitability)???
Haha, and JU816 which departs to Tel Aviv just after midnight will also be operated by a 733. Wtf?!
DeleteTheir fuel consumption isn't that bad, they've got new-generation engines, it's the maintenance that takes the toll. Also installing winglets should have been an option, especially if they were meant to fly charters which are 2-3 hours flights in general.
DeleteCan somebody share the loads on typically atr routes pleae? Maybe that is the reason
Deletei kada bi onda bile vise charter letove sa 733 kako zelji nas INN?
Deletecancel schedule flights for AS and fly charter to AYT? :o
What is the point? 16 aircraft are in the air in the morning wave. APH and ALO are on maintenance, so IT is normal to put 737. TGD full, 128 pax, Tiv 120, lju 128, vie 124 all departing beg
DeleteWinglets? 737-600 is the only 737NG that doesn't have winglets as an option, so winglets on a 737-300 aren't likely
Deletehttp://www.b737.org.uk
FYI :
Deletehttp://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/6/2/2637265.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/8/0/2636086.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/5/8/2635851.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/2/8/2633829.jpg
And many more...
"TGD full, 128 pax, Tiv 120, lju 128, vie 124 all departing beg"
DeletePlease please dont spread lies that planes are this full. That would mean ASL would have LF of 95%+ which it does not. INN-NS dont please dont even come into this discussion since you will say this is true of course.
Best part of the lie is that Ljubljana had 128 pax
Why don't they invest in those a/c getting wnglets? As it seem they'll be flying for quite some time still.
DeleteWell, I guess they would do it, if they knew how long the planes would be used in regular service. But in this situation, where I bet that they don't even know how long will those 737's remain in service, the investment doesn't seem viable.
DeleteAnonymous 4.25
DeleteWhat's so strange about LJU having 100+ passengers? It's not unheard of.
For example, remember about 7 months ago when the A320 flew to LJU? If I remember correctly it left with 120 and came back with around 140 passengers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqkpieTq-zA
Nemjee no offense but I am stunned you actually belive in those stats.
DeleteFirts off, we talked 2 days ago how Podgorica has only a 49% load.
Second, Vienna did not have 124 pax since the route is not doing great actually
Maybe from now on I should make random stats, I bet you will believe in them.
Hmm I don't know for sure how many passengers were on these flights but like I said, it's not unheard of LJU or VIE having over 100 passengers.
DeleteFor example, a friend of mine flew on YU-ANJ some days ago from BEG to VIE and they were 109 passengers. That's not bad, no?
Gents, today JU194 more than 125 pax, JU604 120pax, ju172 more than 130. Please check with you sources, and Anon 6:37 I am expecting apologies ;)
DeleteJU stats, January-April 2015, route to LJU 40.5 PAX per flight on average, route to Zagreb 39,5 PAX per flight since the start of operations.
DeleteJU stats, April15, Ljubljana route was operated by both 733s and ATRs, load factor sharp 50%. Starting from June15th the route will be operated by ATRs exclusively, same as routes to Zagreb and Sofia. By then ALV will be joined in the fleet.
DeleteEvo namerno sam zamolio jednog coveka da uslika 733 da se vidi da je dobro popunjen
Deletehttp://imgur.com/a/37zFI
I adam se da cete prestati lupati kako VIE ide lose
Pa naravno da je dobar lf.
INN-NS
ИНН-НС
DeleteПо свему судећи тај авион што су ти усликали нема више од 60 до 70 путника, то јест попуњеност око 50%.
Tacno je imao 88 putnika :) nije nesto ali opet je dobro .
DeleteINN-NS
ASL route to Vienna saw fewer passengers in 2014 than Jat Airways recorded in 2013, which is in contrary to most ASL routes.
DeleteWow, INN turning Pro :D
DeleteWhere is the "Operated for Air Serbia" sticker that everybody talked about it? Kill me if this is how they are sending it to Tel Aviv, London etc.
DeleteHAHA you are guessing the number of pax by looking at shadows at window planes. This is funny, but I admit that I also applied that method.
Deletelol i didn't open the photo until I read the last comment and I am really amazed that you people are guessing the number of passengers by looking through a window at a distance. I thought it was an actual cabin photo. LOL this made my day.
DeleteHmm it has nothing to do with the number of people sitting by the window, it has to do with the luggage compartments. ;)
DeleteHow compares the 733 in cargo to the A319/A320, anybody knows?
DeleteWell, I don't know the numbers. But, one must remember that OS and JU used to codeshare, so many JU pax were transferring onto OS destinations in Europe (and elsewhere), and vice-versa. I know how many times I have taken the JU313 evening flight from VIE to BEG transferring from somewhere else (on OS stock). This is no longer the case.
DeleteHowever, now you also have a lot of ex-VIE pax using BEG as a transit point for cheap flights. Recently met some that bought dirt cheap tickets from VIE via BEG to some onward destinations, last minute.
Wow INN, get us more pictures like this :D
DeleteJust came from bgd to vienna with AS 733. 18.55 flight. Plane was full.
Delete351 TXL BEG 733 YU-ANK Y107-J1
Delete231 ZAG BEG 733 YU-ANI Y63
182 BEG TIV 733 YU-ANK Y100
183 TIV BEG 733 YU-ANK Y131
194 BEG LJU 733 YU-ANJ Y124-J2
604 BEG VIE 733 YU-AND Y119-J1
605 VIE BEG 733 YU-AND Y57-J1
Thanks!
DeleteAny stats for the night flights guys, Beirut and others?
Is there really no A319/A320 available so that Tel Aviv and Beirut must be flown by 733??!
Deletetrully chauvinist thread. why are OU, JP, YM and JA CLF numbers absent from this thread, disgusting. talk about them all or none.
DeleteLepo je objasnjeno gore u jednom postu, da Srbija nema ugovor o carter saobrcaju sa Turskom. Ocigledno da se Turci ne zure. Znaju oni da Srbi nemogu da nadju jeftinije letovanje od Tiurskih, u tom kontekstu i Egipatskih ltovalista. Imaju sa cime i kako. Zato je neizvodljivo da imaju privremene dogovore za carteracaj bar na tri cetiri godine. I onako ti medju drzavni pregovori traju vec vise od par godina. Srpski turisti nisu finansiski prebogati, pa se Turci ne trude nikako. Skupo je za turiste iz Srbije da provode i sedam dana na rivierama Italije, Francuske, Spanije. Carterima se ne leti iz Srbije bas preterano za Palmu, Kanare... Tursku nije preterano briga za turiste sa carter letova iz Srbije. Da je drugacije, nebi Turska gospoda tako zahtevna bila u fair go sporazumu. Postoje dva relativna resenja. Prvi, objektivniji je da oni koji jeinu sansu da provedu desetak, petnaest dana na Turskom moru jeste put autobusima tridesetak sati u jednom pravcu. Pa sta ostane od ledja. A treba se i nazad vratiti. Ni tri masera nisu dovoljna da svaki prsljen vrati na svoje mesto. Ah ti Turci ! Pa gdece im Dusa... Druga alternative jeste druga destinacija dostupna siromasnim platisama, medju kojima veliki broj uzima kredit i za ovakav odmor. Turci ko Turci, gledaju svoj interes, sto je legitimno. Nove sezone prolaze i odlaze. "Dogovori'' teku proceduralno i kosevetalno. U kojoj deceni bude, bice. Sta reci? Ex bre Turci, na zdravlje vam popara. Do carter letova, srdacan pozdrav iz jesenjeg Sidneja. Rodney & Co.
ReplyDeleteRodney prijatelju, od kada su Rusi zaposeli Tursku ona je daleko od jeftine destinacije.
DeleteNece Rusi ovog leta van zemlje, preporuka je da letuju na Krimu: http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/planeta.300.html:544085-Putin-preporucio-sluzbenicima-Letujte-na-Krimu-ne-na-Jadranu
DeleteTako i nasi turisti mogu na jezera, reke, banje i planine Avioletom do Nisa, Kraljeva ili Uzica.
It's very easy. What agencies demand is:
ReplyDelete1. ) 180-200 seats
2.) affordable fares
3.) convenient timings
4.) availability on requested days
None of above was granted by Air Serbia (Aviolet), because they are in a self created fleet-mess! In a typical Balkan manner, the clients are now suffering the retaliation upon the saying "ako umre moja krava, nek' umre i komsijina".....Btw. charter is charter and most bilaterals do not include chapters about charters as it would be too complicated in a constantly changing environment. The word "charter" is self-explanatory !
bravo,
Deletesta nisu dali Aviogenex novaca za jedan 738?
izgleda, da bi imali dosta posla.
+1
DeleteNemaju pametnija posla nego da uloze u kompaniju neku ci managment nema nikakvu viziju.
DeleteA i imaju preca posla nego da uloze 93.3 MIL USD ili 375000 usd mesecno da daju u AGX.
INN-NS
Less Russian tourists are coming to Turkey this season so some in Turkey are aggressively trying to bring more tourists from other places.
DeleteSome Serbian tourist agencies have no concept of thinking couple of years ahead. Everyone knows that old 737 planes are going out soon. Air Serbia that will only get bigger and more capable over time, you don't need to be a genius to figure out how to align your business with a strategic partner.
^^^not true. The only thing that JU doesnt have is the larger ac capacity. Our tour operators should have the freedom to make arrangements as they seem fit, however abiding by the laws. The spat with the charter airline companies is stupid and its not the fault of the Turkish or Egyptian charter companies that JU isnt competitive nor does it have the capacity. The summer season didnt just happen out of surprise. I believe there was an original idea that JU remove the charter flights all together, but the plan changed once the EY noticed how much money was actually being makde from them, hence keeping the B733 in the fleet and creating the Aviolet brand. That again is not the fault of other carriers neither should they be interested in the internal affairs of JU. This is just bad politics of the Serbian government, once again hurting the Serbian public wanting to spend what ever little they have left to go on a vaccation. This is shameful!!!
DeleteI will have to add JATBEGMEL to my list of trolls. Almost everything you said was factually incorrect. As a frequent visitor to the site, you had an opportunity to read the facts about Turkey forcing the majority of charters this season and facts about other governments protecting their air traffic interests yet you decided to completely ignore those facts. Therefore you are either supporting tourist agencies and Turkish side out of your own interest or are simply here to spread hate against (Air) Serbia. Based on this, from now on your comments deserve to be filed under "trash".
DeleteSo everyone with a different opinion to yours (because your point of view is obviously not trash) is spreading hate against Air Serbia, as if it were your child. Get a grip.
DeleteNo, get a fact. Bring facts to the game and I'll beat you single handedly every time.
Delete@ anonymous 12:38
DeleteThank god I dont live in North Korea and I do have the right to freedom of speech. I dont 'troll' the site, neither do I represent an airline/agency/country.
I believe I have the freedom as a citizen of the Republic of Serbia to have a choice in the airline I wish to spend my hard earned money on. No law in the Republic of Serbia forbids me to walk, cycle, take a bus/train/plane to any destination I wish to travel to, biding to the fact I have all documents necessary for travel (passport/visa/cash).
I have been here accused of favoritism towards JU, been asked if I work in JU etc. Your opinion is your opinion, again a freedom of speech. However, some people like yourself seem to abuse that privilege. The whole idea of a forum is to voice your opinion and to discuss the topics put forward, you may agree or disagree or agree to disagree, thats up to you.
I am happy for my national airline for which I regularly fly with from personal CHOICE. However, it is also my CHOICE to be allowed to CHOOSE another carrier.
JU needs to decide on whether they want to continue with charters or not, and if they do to step up the game. They have done a fantastic job on their regular scheduled network, but fail to improve their charter network.
I did put foward a suggestion that since JU is in the EY alliance that EY and partner airlines could add capacity to partner airlines if available, just as the case with JU on the AUH and MCT flights. I didnt see you comment on that!
Also, since you are accusing me of incorrect information, feel free to bring the false information forward.
So what happens if Aviolet charters are not approved by the Turkish ministry, will Serbia pull the Turkish Airline charter approvals?
ReplyDeleteThis could turn into bigger mess fast.
OT: Korean Air A330-223 in Zagreb
ReplyDeletehttps://scontent-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11205502_417890395084168_3299155494121071337_n.jpg?oh=408649cbe725dfd0fa8c905d3ead789d&oe=55DD4E1B
So that's a downgrade from 772.
DeleteFirst flight, which took-off from ZAG empty. Flights to follow are full both ways, and will be operated mostly by 772. Last year, it was even 744 few times. You cannot judge of up- or downgrade based on one, the first flight. And even if it were 332 for all rotations, which would not be, it would still be upgrade, because the number of rotations are almost doubled compared to last year, which mean more passengers, and more income both for ZAG airport, and croatian tourism. But you obviously belong to those who are more than happy and excited if "komsiji crkne krava"
Delete+1, why be so jealous of others success? Ask the Ministry of Stupidity to do their job instead or move out and let others do it for them.
DeleteDoes anybody know how many meals are brought to the plane if lets say there is 80 occupied seats out of 128 total seats? I remember once flying with Air France from RUH to CDG during March and the load was around 30-40%. The cabin crew offered each pax a second hot meal . Also what happens when there are plenty of meals left due to any circumstance?
ReplyDeletePlanned figures are from reservation system, exact numbers are from dcs+some %. So it is pretty accurate. From your experience probably they decided no to wait transfer passengers due to some reason and you got bingo ��
Deletewhen there are plenty of meals left - crew eat them, take home for family & pets, give to hungry airport staff (baggage loaders), etc....hahahaha...
ReplyDeleteno, extra catering is offloaded by catering team and disposed. Unused items such as juices etc are catered onto other flight except for food items (meals, bread etc). Airline staff are forbidden to take catering off the aircraft.
Delete"Airline staff are forbidden to take catering off the aircraft."
DeleteSounds reasonable, but then again they are allowed to eat left over meals after the meal service, right?
Crew are always catered separate catering to be consumed only by crew. If a crew member wishes to have a pax meal not used during the service, they can. As said, the 'leftover' catering (perishable items) is disposed of. Airlines tend to have a strict policy on crew taking food/beverage off the aircraft, in some airlines even termination of contract.
Delete