Embraer is confident it can secure an order from Croatia Airlines to replace its entire fleet of six Dash 8 turboprops and seven Airbus A320-family aircraft, saying the offer it has prepared for the airline is “too hard to refuse”. Although both Embraer and Airbus presented their aircraft to the carrier exactly a year ago - Embraer its E2 jet and Airbus its A220 - the Brazilian planemaker says it is prepared to replace Croatia Airlines’ fleet within eighteen months of securing an order. “From the day we presented our aircraft in Zagreb we have been at the disposal of Croatia Airlines’ team. Embraer is an expert in this segment of the aviation market, and we believe that the best solution for Croatia Airlines would be to align its fleet with the same family of advanced new-generation aircraft. If we take organic traffic growth into account, we are talking about a fleet of some fifteen aircraft”, the President and CEO of Embraer Commercial Aviation, Arjan Meijer, told the “Jutarnji List” daily.
The plane manufacturer has offered Croatia Airlines a good deal if it secures an order. “Embraer has put together an offer that is hard to refuse. In principle, we do not publicise the value. What I can say is that our aircraft would generate a significantly higher operating profit in Croatia Airlines’ network, due to its significantly smaller cost base. The calculation of this advantage over a ten-to-fifteen-year period of flying amounts to several million dollars per aircraft. I am convinced that we can translate our lower production costs into a far better offer for Croatia Airlines, saving the country millions”, Mr Meijer said. He added, “Also, Embraer would compensate for any financial difference that Croatia Airlines might have due to the previous, unfulfilled order from Airbus. This tender is of strategic importance for us and we want to ensure that the airline has complete freedom of choice between the two options”.
Embraer’s Vice President for Sales and Marketing, Cesar Pereira, previously told EX-YU Aviation News, “The E2 family of aircraft would allow Croatia Airlines to significantly boost operational efficiency and lower costs, by reducing complexities that airlines typically have if they operate more than one type. This includes areas such as crew training, scheduling, maintenance, and operations. The overall result of flying a single-type fleet is lower costs and improving the airline’s financial performance”. He added, “The E2 family is comprised of three family members, from ninety to 146 seats, which will offer Croatia Airlines great flexibility to operate the ideal capacity on their future network. Embraer is in advanced stages of launching a next generation turboprop aircraft, built on the design and comfort of the E2. Once launched, this aircraft could be a formidable contender for Croatia Airlines on thinner and shorter markets, where the Q400 is operating today”.
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If they decide to replace entire fleet than Embraer makes more sense as they have planes with 90 seats while the smallest version of the A220 has minimum 100 seats.
ReplyDelete90 seats is E2-175 which is delayed multiple time due to lack of orders. Zero orders until now.
DeleteEmbraer has a big issue with this airplane, that is why they now focusing on turboprop design as a substitute.
Embraer E2 is loser at moment. US and most of other companies replace old E190/195 with A220! Just look at orders for E2 and A220, and everything is clear. Once A220-500 appears, E2 will be dead. A220 will cover 100-175 seat category which will be optimum for airlines like Croatia or Air Serbia for short and medium range. Only chance for Embraer is to finalize turboprop in 90 seat category, and go to market where could replace old Q400 and compeete with ATR72 with bigger capacity and lower costs. Even then we can expect next generation of ATR as respond from Airbus. I personaly believe that Embraer will loose.
DeleteIn order to be success, potential Embraer Turboprop must be made as 76 seater at first place (because of US market) with option to go for one larger version also.
DeleteSeems that Mitsubishi was on time to quit with waisting money in this range with with MRJ. SSJ is RIP for at least 5 years. Bombardier quit also. Since Boeing has no interest investing in E2 program - I believe we will soon have only one player. Airbus and A220 in obviously winning this game. Turboprop can be only chanse, and yes, I agree that targeting capacity shall be arround 76 pasangers so plane could scoop USA and rest of the world...
DeleteBoth Mitsubishi & Embraer "lost a bet" that US rules limiting regional aircrafts will be changed. That caused huge issues with new planes for them, Mitsubishi was at the end forced to exit the business.
DeleteTo be honest, I'm note sure based on what insider info they made such a mistake.
Embraer has less orders even than SSJ! Below 300! This plane will be dead in next 10 to maximum 15 years! This disaster can be recomended to Croatia only by self proclamed analyst such as Purger. Personaly I believe Croatia shall fly turboprop plus a319. One day they will be able to replace a319 with a220. That's it.
DeleteOne thing is sure - there is a brighter future for Embraer then for SSJ :)
DeleteSsj, mrj, e2jet... Black, black, dark gray...
DeleteAs of someone said, that A220-500 will kill Embraer. Let's start with the fact that it's diffent market, and A220-500 won't come. Airbus would kill iself if they made another modern aircraft for 180 seat market
DeleteWow they really want that order from OU if they are prepared to cover the difference of the old Airbus order.
ReplyDeleteSecuring an order from a European company is important for any manufacturer. Especially entering a new market
DeleteYou can offer them the planes for free, they will go for Airbus for political reasons. Same way that undelivered Airbus order was made for political reasons to secure French approval for EU accession.
ReplyDeleteSad but true.
DeleteNothing sad about it, it's called politics.
DeleteEmbraer E2 has the same shit cabin as Ryannair... horrible to sit in that aircraft. Embraer is a bad choice and no one is buying it since long, long, long...
DeleteWhy replace Q400s? They are not that old
ReplyDeleteThey are not exactly young either.
DeleteAveraging 13 years at the moment
DeleteThey can still operate them for years without a problem.
DeleteDoesn't OU have a lot of issues with them?
DeleteThey certainly do, like many operators.
DeleteJust look what happened with their plane in Sarajevo recently.
DeleteThe whole point of the fleet renewal is to reduce costs. So yes, they should replace Q400s
DeleteIn this case, Embraer has the upper hand over Airbus.
ReplyDeleteReplacement of entire fleet in just 18 months is a good deal. Doubt Airbus could deliver 15 A220s in a year and a half.
ReplyDelete+1
DeleteThat would be a big transition. From Airbus to Embraer. We will see...
ReplyDeleteI remember reading on another site by 'expert' analyst some 3 months ago that OU supervisory board has already made an order for A220 lol.
ReplyDeleteIt was just another fake article from them. It was denied by OU.
DeleteHad it actually happened, it would have to be approved by the government, OU would make a big deal out of it and it would appear in Airbus' order books.
DeleteTo me it makes sense having a one type fleet if possible
ReplyDeleteI think OU is missing a plane in between the Q400 and Airbus.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely
DeleteThis would be a good choice and far cheaper than Airbus.
ReplyDelete“too hard to refuse”
ReplyDeleteLol with their management everything is possible
just small correction : puppet management
DeleteLoans, government guarantees, creative accounting to pump taxpayers money and most likely EU funds which would allow OU to become "green"
ReplyDelete"saving the country millions”
ReplyDeleteDon't think this has ever been a priority for Croatia Airlines.
Not only saving has ever been priority for them, it's more they spend better they feel
DeleteBecause of that last reason and for EU to let OU get government aid, they will choose Airbus.
ReplyDeleteWhen will they make an actual order for planes? It has been a year.
ReplyDeleteAt this rate never. I have really lost hope.
DeleteIt's an extremely important and expensive decision that should not be rushed. It will shape their entire future.
DeleteBesides that fleet isn't exactly falling apart so they can afford some time.
DeleteTheir time is running out with each record quarterly loss.
DeleteTheir clock is ticking
DeleteChanging your entire fleet structure is something you don't do over night and something you really have to analyze and thing through properly.
DeleteThe main issue with OU is not the fleet. Yes, their fleet is ageing and they need to think about the renewal. But as long as they voluntarily choose to remain small, remain feeder, remain politically run and controlled, overstaffed, incompetent on the highest levels (operational part must be competent), inert and corrupted, nothing will change, with or without new aircraft type(s).
Delete@09:19, When is the next election?
DeleteIs OU Technics certified for Embraer planes?
ReplyDeleteI don't think so but as far as I'm aware they are not certified for the A220s either.
DeleteThere's plenty of time for them to get certification required for new type (whatever that may be), between the order and arrival of first aircraft.
DeleteGood luck Embraer. Hope Croatia Airlines makes the right pick.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting indeed. I mean this is how business is done by offering an agressive sale. The E2 orders in Europe are not that much but have read elsewhere that Norwegian's Wideroe and Spain´s Binter Canarias are quite happy with the aircraft.
ReplyDeleteAgree. Wonder what Airbus is doing behind the scenes.
DeleteI'm on the E2 often as Helvetic operates them to MXP on behalf of LX. Surprisingly comfortable and spacious for a 2-2 config. Then again, the flight is barely half an hour so take my impressions with a grain of salt :)
DeleteAnyone flown with the E2? What's it like?
ReplyDeleteGreat plane. Flew with Helvetic. Nice cabin, big windows, lots of space in the overhead compartments and quiet.
DeleteAre we really doing this again? OU renewing fleet? With what, or better yet, for what?
DeleteWith tax payers money, to continue being pathetic feeder and humiliated servant
DeleteOne of Airbuses biggest advantages was the money Croatia Airlines has tied up with them over that A320 order. But now that Embraer is willing to cover that, the door is wide open. Will be interesting to see who they go for.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. Will be interesting to watch. Just hope OU isn't playing then
Delete*them
DeleteApart from covering the money OU has given to Airbus (I believe they paid a deposit right?) They will also have to pay penalties most likely
DeleteEmbraer is desperate here, how can you trust a company that is willing to commit suicide. Hopefully OU knows that buying airplanes is a 25yr decision, you need a solid partner like Airbus. Sorry Embraer but you are finished
DeleteGood luck with that...
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to eventuality reading why Croatia Airlines chose an inferior and more expensive offer from Airbus.
ReplyDeletewhich is highly likely to happen, despite the offer difficult to refuse
DeleteThe E195E2 “Profit Haunted” is the worst choice you can make. If a company is willing to publicly state that they are heavily discounting their product to win business, that means they are desperate. Embraer commercial aircraft division will disappear in less than 10yrs. Definitely not a solid partner for a flag carrier
DeleteIs there any guarantee OU will be around in 10 years' time?
DeleteAny proud Croat taxpayer would want to make sure their airline chooses the right aircraft for its future. Buddy, if you question the future our country, then i’d guess you are for Embraer, u want to keep small and corrupt. Airbus and the A220 will put Croatia I the map, for once you will feel proud of our aviation industry once and for all
DeleteBuddy, if you are proud Croat tax payer, you would aim your airline to be well managed, not mismanaged; professional and transparent, not incompetent and corrupt, and big and with its own developed network, not pathetic feeder picking breadcrumbs for the Cartel. But obviously we come from different countries, my country being Croatia and yours Kradezetia
DeleteIs Boeing still in it with a chance with their MAX offer?
ReplyDeleteThe last thing they need right now is a plane the size of the Max.
DeleteBoeing does not have the right sized plane for Croatia Airlines' needs.
DeleteAnd the max has the worst reputation
DeleteThis process is moving so slowly
ReplyDeleteIndeed :(
DeleteLet's hope for a good outcome
ReplyDeleteHopefully some sustainable plan can be made to keep the planes fully utilized in winter. Do ACMI perhaps?
ReplyDeleteThey could have done ACMI up until now but they didn't.
DeleteThis whole situation with OU getting new airplanes is completely wrong. Reminds me of the comments sections on T6 whenever new air force jet trainer is mentioned, yet the actual airplane that these should be preparing pilots for - hasn't been chosen. How can OU decide which planes are best for them when their management is clueless and they have no strategy whatsoever (apart some nonsense on the paper they overpaid for)?! How can you select the best airplane when you are not sure what you will be using it for? Before plunging into such an expensive adventure of buying new airplanes, wouldn't it be logical to first do something about the company management, get some people that actually know their business and want to work, get rid of unnecessary employees, come up with an actual plan and long-term strategy and THEN see which planes fit the role best? I mean - Croatia is not Slovenia, a fleet consisting of regional jets very well might not suite them well. Fine for the winter, but they would likely need bigger airplanes for the summer. Or, maybe their strategy will be to leave the summer market to the LCCs and leisure companies, and they focus on providing good connectivity for the country?
ReplyDeleteMy point is - instead of arguing which is better for OU, Airbus or Embraer, why aren't people focusing on the actual problems that OU has? Even if selecting a new airplane was the problem, the more pressing issue is the actual purpose for these planes, which needs to be established before the plane is selected. Otherwise, if they actually go through with the purchase, they could end up with expensive new airplanes that are inadequate for what they need...
+1000
DeleteWe wrote basically the same comment at the same time 😃
+1
DeleteFully agree, it is like changing your accounting software rather than addressing holes in the budget. It can only go so far.
DeleteThis may turn out to be a very good decision for Croatia Airlines.
ReplyDeleteMy only skepticism is the team that is going to decide on this.
ReplyDeleteIt won't happen. OU will buy Second hand Airbus aircraft.
ReplyDeleteMost likely, knowing them
DeleteAs a passenger, I would always choose Embraer over A220 as there is no way I will be stuck in the middle seat. E2 is an excellent aircraft but it lacks the political support which A220 has, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteBingo. Agree completely
DeleteI refuse to be crammed up like a sardine in the Ejet regional jet fuselage. Also having a half window/no window in some rows is a no go. At 80% pax LF nobody seats in the A220s only middle seatin right of the cabin. The A220 has a superior product to even the 737Max or A320neo. Embraer has no chance
Delete@Anonymous16:16 - Well, your choice, go on and refuse - I wanna be crammed into Embraer's cabin as I had A LOT of flights onboard Emb's and always felt great, better than larger planes. I just stated my preference and the thing about window/half window/no window you are describing is a config of the cabin which depends on an airline, not aircraft type. That argument is, to put it nicely, extremely childish. I guess you are new to this or lack experience and you'll see, it will come with time. Have an outstanding day!
DeleteYes my children like to seat by the window. I invite you to use your experience in aircraft engineering and measure the window pitch of the Ejets (1 every 2 frames like a CRJ) and the one on the A220 (1 per frame like a real single aisle aircraft). You should first fly on an A220
Deletebefore bashing. You can be as experienced as you want, congratulations to you, what you wrote is still BS .
@Anonymous16:02 - BS? What a nice lingo from a parent who is SO concerned about windows for the kids on a regional flight that he/she/they measures the distance between them and counts the frames. You made my day, thanks! :) I do recommend that you educate yourself a bit and fly more (a lot more). That way, you will be less angry and able to take part in the discussions of this kind without tantrums and inappropriate language. BTW, I have experience as a traveller, cabin crew and, believe it or not, hold a degree in aviation industry field. However, I'm sure that the distance between windows and what your children like will change the aviation forever and end aircraft production as we know it.
DeleteLet's hope it just doesn't end up like Adria's order for 15 Sukhoi planes.
ReplyDeleteI only wish they did this 3 years ago. It might be late now.
ReplyDeleteThe price would have been higher three years ago.
DeleteE2 same horrible cabin as Ryannair or ATR, really bad for a respectable airline. Embraer is not selling at all since very long, too long... they are desperate and may fairly disappear.
ReplyDeleteEmbraer E2 against Airbus A220, E2 20%... A220 80% fust facts !
ReplyDeleteEmbraer basicly put all cards on the table for OU a year ago in private and today in public. OU management and subsequently Croatian government is trying to hide under the rock and not take responsibility for the foremost Croatian public and Croatian market. Its is obvious that picking A220 is avoiding responsibility to actually DO something in other segments of running an Airline. Yes, Embraer belongs to B country, first letter of the BRICS but other option is worse in the long run for the OU. My bet OU will pick 3rd option and do nothing ; it will not pick either plane and commit slow suicide.
ReplyDeleteYour comment wasted 2 precious minutes of my life. Useless, thanks for nothing
DeleteAnon 21:40
DeleteI dont see any debate from you so it is you that is deprived of a chance to learn something. It is very obvious what is happening with Airline industry and individual airlines in the light of changes in the world including supply chains issues, energy issues, airline manufactures in the last 2 ,3 years since Covid. You just have to connect the dots. In terms of OU, and all Ex-Yu Airports they all want to shout Hop and then Jump. They should Jump now and not worry about saying "Hop". Embraer is the "Jump"
It’s sad that your only ambition for a country’s flag carrier is to make of it a “HOP” kind of airline. The Croatian public deserve more than just regional jets. The A220 is the future proof decision, Embraer will be bankrupt in a few months if they keep doing business like this
DeleteThere was a time, when certain airline from ex Yu, had almost perfect position and fleet. Mixture of DC-9, MD82 and A320. Then they had to get rid of the DC-9 (old), and after brakeup of Yu, also MD82 (although nobody knows why, as they could operate them for another 10 years). Then the internal "experts" embodied in captain lobbysts, decided to push for this little canadian cutie. They didn't care, that the cost/benefit ration was extremely poor and that this type (CRJ2) was ideal only for feeder airline. Guess what, after several years, they finaly realised, that it is impossible to be hypbrid airline - part national carrier, part feeder, part charter operator, and even worse, that the fleet, which was reflection of this, became stone arround their necks. So you see, as anon at 10:30 in his lenghty disposal is (again) correctly proving, that fleet comes last, not first, nobody has apparently learned anything....
ReplyDeleteYes Croatian people deserve better than having a "Hop" airline with a ridiculous Embraer E2 small cabin with absolutely no comfort. The future of Croatia airlines can only be with Airbus that brings more comfort and more revenue to the airline.
ReplyDeleteTalking about Support and after sales, Airbus is obviously way better.
Embraer is only 15000 employees and will disappear soon as they have no orders. They lost recently Air France and ITA, why ?
You are aware that with both types OU remains "hop airline", hopping for the Cartel? Only Embraer provides much cheaper hopping, 220 much more expensive one
DeleteA220 cabin is much wider, nothing like Embraer HOP style. Pitch in E2 cabin is 27, just like in the Ryannair aircraft. Airbus A220 pitch is above 31. Just a fact
ReplyDeleteEven with short flights a shit cabin is an awful experience.
Cabin configuration, pitch included, is determined and decided by the airline, not the aircraft manufacturer. Flew both types personally, Embraer much better and more enjoyable experience.
DeleteI personally do not enjoy hitting my head with the Bin every time I stand up or try to seat down. Also I want to slide my feet under the seat and not have my bag there cuz there is no space In the bin. The Embraer experience is crap, Airbus makes real passenger friendly planes. A220 is the best value for Croatia
DeleteA220 being slightly bigger module can bring higher revenues to the airline and probably allows CTN to grow with new routes as the range is better as well.
ReplyDeleteNow I would also sense that EMB is more difficult to finance as that aircraft has certainly a low residual value and no one is buying it thus the risk is higher
Aw...common...Embraer's propose is much better than the concurrency. As Croatia Airlines network doesn't need a plane as big as an Airbus with passengers capacity, neither with range as the A220, or its cost of operation, passengers per seat etc. In Croatia's network range, seat capacity, low costs of operation, aircraft value, aircraft time delivered, Embraers E2-Jet will fit them perfectly. They can even get all the planes delivered in much less time as specified by Embraers CEO. Cause as they don't have orders they can dedicated themselves just to deliver Coratia Airlines planes. Unfortunately E2-Jets program really going bad compared to Airbus A220, which have better range, route flexibility, passengers says it's interior are better, of course airlines will choose a plane which more versatile, which they can stretch their routes whenever they need it. But well someone in Embraer thinks another thing, so let they watch their program die little by little, step by step, as they don't care about the plane short range. Dude all airlines are desperate seeking narrow bodies with long range, like A321XLR, the morons inside Embraer should focus on this, extend its range to say something like 6000km. Once they did it they will see maybe thousands of orders piping up.
ReplyDeleteMany predict Embraer's future, saying that its commercial division will go bankrupt. The Brazilian company is no newcomer, to the point of not trying to reinvent itself when necessary. It was not for nothing that it reached the rank of 3rd largest western aircraft manufacturer. Many question the fact that the E2 family is not repeating the commercial success of the E1 family and losing ground to the A220. However, it must be taken into account that Embraer's main product has always been the E175 for the US, its main market, and that with the new stricter environmental rules to be adopted in 2027, Embraer will resume the E175 certification process.
ReplyDeleteE175e2 will never fly as it does not meet the MTOW limit in the pilot scope clause for US regionals. Same as the MRJ is dead, the E175e2 is for dreamers in lala land.
DeleteI heard that Air Astana brought Embraer to court, is that true?
ReplyDeleteTrue. Air Astana sues Embraer for grounded planes, due to safety issues (Reuters info July 21)
ReplyDeleteThis is why they discount their airplane. It’s a liability. I would never do business with a Brazilian company, there is no business ethics and so much corruption.
DeleteMain issue is not that Embraer is in a very bad shape, but that E2 does not correspond to Croatian Airlines needs in terms of growth for the next 15 years.
ReplyDeleteEmbraer are not selling in the US and this market is closed to them.same in India, same in Asia, same in EU. What is the future...
Embraer E2 is obviously cheaper than A220, as it is a smaller and stretched smaller module (old model). Less revenues with E2 and E2 cannot accommodate Croatia airlines growth in the next 15 years along with potential new routes as A220 is a superior product in terms of range.
ReplyDeleteE2 is of none intetest to Croatia airlines, as it was none interest to Air France, ITA and so on..